Atheos It's Good for Me, Part 1

Can you spot the move from 'My faith/belief is true,' to 'My faith/belief benefits me'?

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At least half of the steps in Alcoholics Anonymous involve accepting God. Theism helps people stop drinking.

AA's high success rate is bogus: If you relapse, you aren't considered to have completed the program. AA is a sham.

Even if theism can provide benefits to believers, isn't it also quite dangerous to believe things about reality without sufficient evidence?

I'd rather get drunk than accept your God.

So, AA forces vulnerable people to accept particular spiritual views. Does that seem okay to you?

In what way is the success (or failure!) of this program in any way tied to the truth of your God belief?

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Atheism causes people to do bad things.

Does Thor atheism cause people to do bad things?

Doesn't religion allow for those bad things to occur without consequences?

Interesting. Are you saying that only atheists do bad things?

Faith has caused more death & suffering than atheism ever will. No?

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Being 'born again' as a believer helps people who would otherwise harm society.

Do you happen to know any of these people?

Doesn't being 'born again' have to do with a shift in one's beliefs? Aren't you just saying that altered beliefs result in altered behavior?

Religion is not the right tool for helping such dangerous people. Wouldn't they benefit more from professional attention?

I see no reason to think being 'born again' would have any effect on a person's moral behavior.

Accepting for a moment that this is accurate, how do you know it's because they believe true things?

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Belief brings me monetary gain [prosperity gospels].

Taking people's money when you are spreading lies is just wrong. Have you no remorse?

Fake it 'til you make it. Good business plan.

How does it follow that God exists because the people who believe or pretend to believe have more money than most of the people who don’t?

There's a correlation between the strength of one's belief & the wealth one receives? What about poor believers who are sincere?

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Belief in God creates moral societies.

Charles Manson believed in God. Was he moral?

The people of Saudi Arabia have a very high rate of belief in God. Do you believe they’re a moral society?

How can the moral, practical, & economic success of Scandinavia, with the lowest rates of God-belief in the world, be explained?

Belief in God creates dangerously delusional & infallible societies.

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Believing in God gives me a sense of safety.

So might a gun.

If the belief were true, I could certainly see why. I just wonder how a person could know their God provides safety.

A sense of safety is different from actually being safe, no?

From what, the truth?

But that sense of security is false!

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Everyone would be so disappointed in me if they found out I no longer believe.

Aren't many people disappointed when loved ones don't share their beliefs? Delusion or truth, you'll have to decide.

Aren't you the one that should be disappointed in them for not accepting you?

Yes, many people you love could profess to be disappointed in you. How do you balance that against living honestly & authentically?

Is it really a good idea to let others’ opinions of you dictate your behavior?

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Faith traditions bind people together.

So do other group book clubs. What if they're in the KKK & bind over their hatred of Jews & African Americans?

So can sex.

Why not just spend time doing something you enjoy with other people that isn't religious?

Hmm. Could people practice a tradition based upon a misunderstanding of reality & yet still end up divided?

Who would want to be part of a community held together by baseless assumptions?

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God makes me a stronger human.

Why don't you give yourself the credit you deserve! You're attributing your achievements to an imaginary figure.

How do you know it’s God?

Doesn't weightlifting also make a person stronger? There isn't anything special about God. Arnold!

Is God responsible for that, or your belief in God? How can you tell the difference?

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Having faith aids me in my recovery from drug & alcohol addiction.

How do you know the strength you feel from faith isn't just a placebo effect?

Why not draw your strength from hope to free yourself from addiction?

Does that have any bearing on whether or not your faith leads you to have true beliefs?

Isn't your faith just another form of addiction?

People of other faith traditions make the same claim. How could we figure out if the act of faith or the truth of one's faith is at play here? Or maybe it's something else entirely?

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Having faith has mental health benefits.

Isn't believing things that don't match with reality actually one of the symptoms of mental illness?

How do you know it’s not the community aspect of religion that confers mental health benefits?

Like what?

Do you mean it comforts you by bridging the gaps of your understanding with false ideas & conclusions?

You accidentally said 'benefits' where you should have said 'detriments'.

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Having faith makes me happy.

Pretending is an important process in coming to understand reality.

So, being delusional makes you happy?

A lot of things make people happy, like binging on candy. Does that entail that one should binge on candy?

Which should someone value more: truth or happiness? And are you implying that your faith isn't true?

Knowing the truth makes me happy.

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I believe in a God because it makes me feel great.

That sounds very similar to something a drug dealer might say. How might one tell your God is real?

You would feel better if you didn't believe in a God.

Really? I would have thought that would make you feel your God was great, not you!

But that doesn't show that Gods exist; it just means belief makes you feel good, no?

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I believe in God because 90% of humanity does. I simply want to fit in & not be discriminated against.

Because the majority of people hold a particular belief, does that increase the likelihood that the belief is true?

We all have to face the music. Why hide like a coward?

So do you actually believe in God or just say that you believe?

The 10% of nonbelievers are the better community.

Pfft. That's not genuine belief, then. That's just conformity.

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I believe so I can influence & control others.

Is belief necessary in order to do that?

It sounds like you're saying your belief is useful. If a belief is useful, does that necessarily make it true?

... said all those who wrote your holy text. Don't you see that's the purpose of religion?

Begone, filthy theocrat!

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I belong in my faith. If I left, I’d lose my community.

What do you value more, truth or community?

Is it worse to lose a community or to hold false beliefs & be inauthentic?

If they abandon you because you changed your mind, they aren't worth hanging around anyway.

If we discovered vibrant communities of non-believers would that make the decision to exit easier?

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I could never have given up drinking without faith.

That wasn't faith. You knew you had a problem & worked to fix it.

How do you know it was your faith that helped you & not your own perseverance?

You could have, but you didn't let yourself. Why give credit to faith?

Many people successfully kick their addictions without faith. Can't hope, boredom, & disgust serve exactly the same purpose?

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I met a guy who became Christian for his musical career & he became a famous musician.

What does that have to do with the truth of Christian belief system?

Isn't that just a sad example of playing to the masses? He isn't truly Christian; he did it for money.

What makes you think those two facts were causally related?

That is a career move, not a spiritual one.

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I have to believe, otherwise people would find out & I'd lose my job.

It's disturbing to even have to think about that. Any reason you can't at least be honest with yourself, even if you can't tell your co-workers?

Mental slavery in the workplace is illegal. Why would you want to work in such a place?

What you believe is personal. Why should anyone at your job need to know your faith beliefs?

Don't you think you need to look for a better job?

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If God weren’t with me, I’d be dead by now.

A person somewhere in the world died in a car accident four hours ago. Was your God not with her?

Maybe that means God is trying to keep you out of heaven for as long as possible because He doesn't like you.

Are you saying that God actively intervenes in reality to protect you? How do you know that?

So, you'll only believe after you've suffered an early death?

How many people have died with the delusion that their God was with them?

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If I became an atheist my friends wouldn’t talk to me.

If they abandon you because you changed your mind, they are not worth hanging around anyway.

Then were they ever your friends to begin with?

I'm sorry to hear that. Do you think there’d be benefits to finding more accepting & open-minded friends?

It seems like your friendships are based on shared conclusions. How does that make you feel?

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If my friends found out I don’t believe in God they’d abandon me.

So you'd rather keep friends by pretending to know what you don't know & live in delusion with them?

They are not your true friends. Wouldn't you be better off getting new friends?

Wouldn’t you rather spend time with people who accept your beliefs, even if they disagree?

Have you ever considered that you might have friends who feel the same way, but are reluctant to say so for that very reason?

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If you don't convert, you'll go to Hell.

Do you always threaten people to join your cult?

So, a serial killer gets into heaven if she subscribes to your beliefs, but an atheistic humanitarian doesn't?

Is fear of punishment a good reason to form a belief about reality?

Lots of my favorite rock stars & comedians must be in Hell. Who wouldn't want to hang with such a cool crowd?

How can you be certain that's true?

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I'm a believer because that way people know I’m a good person.

Couldn't you still hold the same morals & values that you have now without accepting theistic beliefs?

What about people like me, who judge the respectability of others largely by their critical thinking skills?

What's the relationship between belief in a God & being a good person?

Does the truth of your beliefs matter to you?

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I’m in love with a Catholic man. If I don’t become Catholic, then I can’t be with him.

If he can't love you for who you are, why would he be worth it?

Sounds like it might be time to move on, then. Don't sacrifice your principles.

So, the only relationship you can possibly have with this man is one based on dishonesty?

He should accept you as you are. If anything, he should drop his Catholicism to demonstrate his commitment to you!

Do you really want to be with someone who won’t accept you unless you submit to his worldview?

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I’m terrified that the person I love will find out I’m not a believer.

So instead, you'll lie to yourself & them so that you can live a life of delusion together?

What if your roles were reversed? Wouldn’t you want them to be honest & open with you?

Then don't you need to find another person for yourself?

That's a valid concern. Is it worth going through life living a lie? Don't you want your lover to love you as you really are?

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It brings our family closer together.

Truth & honesty bring families together, no? I'd prefer a genuine relationship over a fear-based one.

Couldn't any shared activity or interest do the same?

So can a tragedy or a shared interest. Did you consciously choose to believe for this reason?

Having dinner with your family every night also brings you closer, doesn't it?