Atheos Dialogue: There's Not Nothing

Something can't come from nothing. Therefore God.

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Everything had to be made by God.

Or it could have been made by magical fairies, right?

Please explain why you say that.

Who's god?

So there was nothing at the beginning of time, & then God created everything?

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All the stuff of the world was made by God, so he had to precede all the stuff.

Which means there was a period preceding the time when God made stuff?

Would you say that creation was an essential act for there to be something?

How do you know? Were you there?

He? How do you know God is a he? Did you conduct a genital inspection?

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Before God's creation of everything, there was just nothing. Not even time.

How old was God when he invented time?

But if there were nothing, there would be no one there to confirm there is nothing, so how could we know if there were really nothing?

How can you use the temporal word 'was' with reference to time, itself?

If there was no time, how could there be a "before"?

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As Parmenides said, "from nothing, nothing comes." So, without God, atheists can't explain why there's something rather than nothing!

The actual existence of nothing entails time, which is something. You can't have nothing without something. Agreed?

Are you aware of Aristotle’s retort to Parmenides?

How does adding God to the equation solve the problem of something coming from nothing—also known as ex nihilo creation?

Parmenides never encountered nothing—nobody ever has—so why do you suppose he considered himself an expert on the topic?

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Nothing is what exists in the absence of God.

So if God blinked out of existence, so would everything else? Or do you think it's possible for God to create stuff that can outlast him?

Do you know this from direct observation?

Are you a pantheist?

Does anyone, whether you or anyone else (including even God), have any empirical evidence for this nothing?

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Since the acquisition of empirical evidence requires the passage of time, & since there can be no time if there is nothing, I would expect (given that there was once nothing) no empirical evidence of nothing. And that's precisely what I have found. So there must have once been nothing.

So, you believe in timeless, spaceless nothing precisely because you have no evidence to believe in it?

Hey, man, do you have any more of that pot?

That's ridiculous. It sounds like Tertullian's claim that he believed what is absurd precisely because it is absurd.

There are all kinds of things that have no evidence. Why don’t you believe in everything that has no evidence?

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Even physicists admit that the universe began to exist & that before the universe there was nothing.

The nothing that physicists talk about is a quantum vacuum, whereas the nothing most theologians talk about is sheer nothing.

Physicists can describe how a universe can emerge naturally from a quantum vacuum. No God is required.

Some physicists believe time began with the universe & that it is therefore nonsensical to speak of what happened before the universe begand to exist.

Physics don't "admit" anything. You make it sound as though they have been forced against their will to make a concession to religious claims.

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Of course the unvierse was created from nothing by God. How else could it have gotten here?

Even if that were so, that God could be dead now.

Do you think the universe could have been created by multiple gods in collaboration?

Could the universe have always existed?

How can we rule out the possibility of some unknown & unconscious cause (or suite of causes) of the universe?

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The phrase 'in the beginning' means the beginning of stuff, not the beginning of God’s eternal lifespan.

Okay. So God preceded all the stuff he created?

You realize, don't you, that the Genesis creation narrative has been disproved by cosmologists?

No it doesn't.

So first there had to be God. He had to exist to create all the stuff. Do I have that right?

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Yes.

How could God measure the passage of time if there was no material change in anything, just using his thoughts?

Which means there was a period preceding the time when God made stuff?

What made God cease to be content with nothing & suddenly decide that there needed to be something?

God existed before he made everything?

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Right.

How long was that period?

That was a period of nothing? Just God?

He was alone.

Doesn't that contradict your earlier statement that 'in the beginning' God created everything?

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That's right.

So there once was a time when nothing existed?

God. Nothing else?

Did God occupy this nothing or did the nothing exist separately from God?

By nothing, do you mean a quantum vacuum?

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Absolutely. Nothing but God.

Absolutely? That's a pretty cocky word, there, isn't it?

Being omniscient, though, he knew that he wasn't going to let that continue, right?

And then, after some period of time, God made everything?

If there had been no God, nothing would have just continued to exist forever?

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Yes. Things don’t just spontaneously pop into existence.

Do you think it's possible for there to be nothing, assuming there’s no God?

Creation was an essential act for there to be something?

How is that less credible than an all-powerful, all-knowing mega-humanoid deity?

According to quantum field theory they do, right?

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Yes. In fact, there must be nothing without God. That’s what I’ve been saying all along!

God made something & that was the end of nothing. Otherwise, there'd still be nothing.

Right. You've said it. Now please defend that claim.

Could this God be any God, perhaps Allah or Zeus?

Without God, there would've been only nothing throughout all time?

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Right.

But if there were nothing throughout all time, there must be time, right?

But if there were nothing, there'd be no one there to confirm there isn't anything, so how could we know if there were really nothing?

So there was a period of time when there was nothing?

But Victor Stenger said that the odds of something existing are higher than the odds of nothing existing, right?

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Well, no, time is something. So there'd be no time either.

And no space, since time & space are united as space-time?

Would time be measurable if there were no matter to change over time?

So time is part of something, which means without time there was nothing?

So, now you're saying that there could never be a time when there was nothing?

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There was just nothing. Not even time.

How can you use the temporal word 'was' with reference to time, itself?

Can you form any coherent conception of the absence of time, a conception that you can communicate?

How old was God before there was such a thing as time?

But earlier you said there was a period of nothing before God created something.

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God created time & nothing together.

You just can't get your story straight, can you?

Does together mean at the same time?

So there was never a time before there was nothing?

But nothing in this case means nothing other than time?

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That's right.

Was there a God before there was time & before there was nothing?

Which means Genesis lied about stuff being created in the first moment of time, right?

What you're describing doesn't sound like anything I have heard from any preacher or scripture. Where'd this come from?

God existed before time. Right? Or can we sensibly say 'before' there was time?

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I guess I can’t say 'before' there was time. The word 'before' makes sense only within time.

So you can’t say that God existed before nothing?

Okay. Then it makes no sense to say nothing came after God or that God preceded nothing. Would you agree?

Okay, so you're starting to think a little now, aren't you?

And since space & time occupy a continuum, you can't say before there was space, either, right?

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God doesn’t exist within time. He created time.

Creation is an act. An act can occur only within the flow of time, right?

But he must dip into space-time to do anything we mortals can detect, right?

Can you conceive of anything outside time & space?

So, again, God didn’t exist before nothing?

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Right.

So do you think it's possible to specify when God created time?

When did God create time, in your view?

So God was nonexistent before nothing existed?

And so far you haven't shown that he existed at all, have you?

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No. That’s a nonsensical question. You can’t discuss 'when' outside the framework of time.

Nothing came into existence with time?

So if you can't say when God did something, how can you say he did it at all?

So you have moved away from your original claim that there was nothing before God created something?

Can you discuss 'where' outside the framework of space?

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I suppose. God created time & nothing together. And later he created all the stuff.

Sounds like you haven't thought this through. Do you need time to think about it?

You believe God created nothing before he created something?

So doesn't this bring us back to square one?

But at the time when something was created, nothing was already in existence?

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Right.

You believe this why?

So nothing has to be created to exist?

How can you create nothing, by clearing out an empty space in something?

It took an act of creation before nothing could exist?

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Yes.

God had to create nothing. God is necessary for the existence of nothing?

Why would God create nothing?

Is there only one type of nothing, or can there be a diversity of nothings?

So without a creative God there could not be nothing?

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Yes. Nothing proves God as much as something does.

But this isn't anything, to exist, requires the existence of time, so we can't ever really say there isn't anything, right?

I like that you agree that nothing proves God.

Your argument seems to have collapsed. You need God to explain something & nothing.

The actual existence of nothing entails time, which is something. You can't have nothing without something. Agreed?

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Well, that’s right.

So how long have you been laboring under the false impression that nothing is an intelligible concept?

Would you agree with Parmenides that nothing comes from nothing? And does that make God nothing?

Sheer nothing is an incoherent concept. Can we agree upon that?

Which means there really is no such thing as pure, isolated nothing?

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Right.

So we have disposed of the original claim that without God there's nothing, right?

Which refutes the initial claim that without God there'd be nothing.

I guess that means I win this round & you now must agree that your initial claim was bogus?

Are you willing to admit now that your belief in God is unwarranted?

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I suppose so.

Thanks for your time. I hope you'll come around & ditch your mistaken beliefs one day. Cheers.

I enjoyed speaking with you. Here's my contact info.

Thanks for your time. Let's talk again soon.

Well THAT was a complete waste of time...

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No, because REAL or ABSOLUTE nothing existed outside of space & time.

Now you've changed from nothing to REAL or ABSOLUTE nothing. What kind of trick is this?

Let's discuss this idea of existing outside space & time.

I'm going to have to ask you to argue in good faith & not switch to a new space-less, timeless nothing.

Can you say when & where this isn't anything existed, or exists, or will exist?

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No. Timeless space-less nothing is absolute, pure nothing. There’s not much you can say about nothing.

If you can't describe it, it probably doesn't exist, wouldn't you say?

Did God create this timeless, space-less nothing?

Because it's impossible to imagine?

The adjective 'absolute' & 'pure' have no meaning with respect to nothing. How do you add qualities to nothing?

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No. It’s what exists in the absence of God.

Do you have any empirical evidence for this isn't anything?

But we might also have something in the absence of God. Right?

We haven't even agreed on what God is like, much less what the absence of God would be.

Obviously, you can't know this from direct observation, but is there any forensic evidence for this? Any tell-tale clues?

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No. Empirical evidence requires experience within time & space. I'd expect no empirical evidence & that's precisely what I've found.

Are you saying one can actually have some kind of evidence or logic to warrant belief in space-less, timeless nothing?

There are all kinds of things that have no evidence. Why don’t you believe in everything that has no evidence?

So, one should believe in timeless, space-less nothing precisely because there's no reason to believe in it?

That's ridiculous. It sounds like Tertullian's claim that he believes because it's absurd.

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I didn’t say I have no reason to believe in it, just no empirical evidence. I believe that without God, there’s just nothing.

So you find the evidence not outside, but from within?

If God & nothing are both timeless & space-less, then we in fact have both God & nothing. Right?

We're going around in circles now, aren't we?

If there's no empirical evidence, then there's no reason to believe it, right?

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I can easily imagine something outside space & time. God, for instance, or nothing, or both.

One cannot meaningfully say that one believes in something that is inconceivable & something outside space-time is inconceivable.

The fact that something can be imagined doesn't make it real.

If you can imagine this, then your mind works very differently from mine.

Explain how that justifies belief that something actually exists outside space-time.

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Well, I can't actually prove something exists outside space-time. But we can't rule it out.

This isn't anything more than the God of the gaps. Geez, talk to me when you have some actual facts.

The Bible says that God does stuff in the physical world, even sending his Son to Earth. God is space-time bound.

Are you saying that we should believe a proposition merely on the basis that it cannot be disproven?

If we can't perceive anything, not just in practice, but in principle, then yes, we can rule it out, at least as a reasonable belief.

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Okay, I will need to think about this.

That would be great. Thanks for the discussion.

Fantastic. Let's please keep in touch.

Awesome! Let's meet in 24 hours & hash this out again.

Really? I thought we made it explicitly clear that you were wrong...