Atheos Dialogue: God-Tuned Moral Compass

We know right from wrong because of God.

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You can't be good without God.

Atheists (people who don't believe in a God) simply cannot be good?

You do realize that religious people are evil too, right?

What exactly is 'good'?

Really? Are you saying it's required that one must believe in a God to be good?

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The standard of good & evil have been given to us by God. Every moral compass is derived from Him.

My moral compass doesn't. How can you say you know my moral compass comes from Him?

Did God obey his own example? Does He not kill, allow rape & discriminate?

What about the explanations of morality that come from our evolutionary psychology?

You just want to put God in charge of everything! Try thinking outside the box!

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He is outside the standard definition of morality.

That doesn't make any sense.

In what way is that not hypocritical & worthy of following?

My morality doesn't require a definition!

I think you're saying God defines morality but works outside of it. Isn't goodness good whether God says so or not?

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An all-knowing entity would have reason for action outside the bounds of our understanding.

Shouldn't goodness be self-evident & consistent with God's good actions?

I don't care what His reasons are: I'm an atheist.

I have reasons for my own actions! Why don't you?

Couldn't society create a standard of morality that isn't hypocritical?

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That's a strange version of the Euthyphro Paradox. What God says is good.

God says evil things, too!

Are you unable to perform good actions unless God tells you they are good? Would you perform a bad action if He told you to do so?

Just your God? What about what all other Gods & what they said?

What about goodness before God spoke with us? Were people evil before Moses gave them the Commandments?

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In either case, yes. God defines morality & would have reasons to justify the goodness of the act.

What if it was an act that otherwise would be considered reprehensible like killing your own child, for example?

That makes you a terrible person!

God defines morality. Hmm. Is there no act you would not do, like burning your daughter, if your God commanded it?

What are those reasons?

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God wouldn't ask me that. But no, I probably wouldn't do it.

Just so I understand, are you saying a person has the capacity to be good without God?

But God told you to!

How do you know what God would ask you to do?

Was it uncommon for God to kill people? Were those killings based on moral demands?

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Atheists kill people all the time for no reason at all. Abortion, wars, etc. Their morality is relative.

How do we know that the reasons people committed moral actions in the Bible weren't inspired by themselves & not by God's command?

Don't atheists kill for good reasons?

Isn't it possible that most societies viewed murder as harmful, long before your God was invoked?

All morality is relative!

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People behaved without morality before Moses delivered the Ten Commandments. We're prey to sin.

Moses did a bunch of bad stuff, didn't he?

How would one differentiate a moral action like rape that is sanctioned in the Bible, but is independently viewed as harmful?

How are you able to discern the difference between a harmful action & a permissible one if you can't trust your own judgment?

What exactly is sin & how are we prey to it?

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Again, if God has a reason, then it was a moral action.

Is God's action moral even if you personally disagree?

You sound like my parents! Not everything is good just because He says so, right?

You don't know what His reasons are!

Even for the most heinous acts you could imagine, if God had a reason for it, it would be moral?

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Yes. More so, because that would be a test of my faith.

So anything is permissible through God?

Is testing your faith more important than behaving morally?

What does your faith matter?

That's a stupid kind of test, isn't it?

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Yes.

If I said that God told me to kill you, would it then be a moral action?

Would your God giving me permission to kill your daughter make that deed good?

Must be pretty easy to have someone give you all the answers.

What if God told you to rape your own pregnant mother?

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I highly doubt God would tell you to kill me.

If we define our morality by others' personal view of God, how can you be so sure they aren't acting in their best interests?

You don't know that, right?

Is there a way to differentiate between a person acting in their best interest & them attributing the action to their God's command?

Doesn't that makes you an atheist?

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The Bible is our reference for that.

Can't you see the Bible is full of lies?

People who are clerics, mystics, faith healers say God speaks to them, too. How might their experiences affect your position?

I can find lots of things in the Bible that aren't true. Would you like me to prove that to you?

The Bible is a collection of views by people who said they heard/saw God. Is this the same?

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God works in ways unknown to us. Who is chosen to speak to is a part of His plan. Holy text is just one manifestation of this plan.

Are you proselytizing to me?

Do you think He spoke to all those people who do terrible things?

Isn't this all relative? If someone says that 'God said so.', does that make it true?

If that is the case, wouldn't one need to approach this from the opposite assumption?

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How do you mean?

Assume God isn't real. There: You've committed a sin. Are you now evil?

The opposite of God being real is God being not real. You can do whatever you want, right?

Is your belief in God the only thing keeping you from committing bad things like murder or rape?

Would you really murder & rape if you could be conclusively shown that your belief in this God was misplaced?

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Of course not.

Q.E.D!

If that's true, wouldn't a person's morality come from their conscience & not from a God?

Why not? Do you need your Invisible Sky Wizard to tell you everything?

So you agree that, without God, you would still act in socially moral manner?

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God is my conscience.

What might that mean for someone who doesn't accept a God & only relies on their conscience?

If God is your conscience, He'd also be mine. Why do you think people's consciences arrive at different conclusions?

Do you really think conscience is real?

God isn't real.

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If God didn't give us morality, from where does it come?

Would you be open to hearing some alternative explanations for morality?

Read a book! They're everywhere! How do you not know this?!

You can't prove God didn't give us morality, can you?

Great question! There are several other ideas on morality; I'd love to direct you to those if you're truly open to learning about them.

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I suppose that's true, if you want to believe it.

It was an enjoyable discussion. I'd like to discuss Biblical & secular morality again with you soon.

You 'suppose'?

It's not a 'belief'!

Nice talking with you. I hope you'll give some more thought about our discussion & how a person could still be good without a God.