Atheos Dialogue: Well-Suited Universe = God

The universe is fine-tuned for life.

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The fact that the universe's properties are just so perfectly suited to human existence proves God exists.

So you favor the Design hypothesis. What about necessity?

No it doesn't.

So you favor the Design hypothesis. What about multiverse possibilities?

So you favor the Design hypothesis. What about chance?

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Scientists have calculated that the chance of the universe being exactly as it appears today is almost 0%.

Actually, with no credible information, the real figure is unknown & low probability doesn't prohibit this universe's existence.

No, it's 100%!

Not true. The real figure could be as high as 100%.

The same could be said for intelligent design.

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Why is that?

The universe is eternal so this was always going to happen.

The anthropic principle proves we had to be here.

Numerous reasons, such as a possibly eternal universe. And the anthropic principle means we shouldn't be so shocked.

Numerous reasons & we simply don't have decisive information to limit our options.

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But we don't have proof that the universe is fine-tuned due to chance.

True, but we also don't have proof of intelligent design.

True, but it's a plausible hypothesis that apologists haven't been able to rule out. And what about necessity?

True, but we must not appeal to ignorance. Consider also the necessity hypothesis.

Yes we do…

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We don't have proof that the universe is fine-tuned due to necessity.

True, but like chance, it is a plausible hypothesis that apologists haven't been able to rule out. Now what proof do we have for design?

True, but like chance, it is a plausible hypothesis that apologists haven't been able to rule out. We also don't have proof of design.

Yes we do…

Yeah, but we also don't have a way to determine if intelligent design is the answer.

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Only the fact that chance & necessity aren't reasonable options.

I just refuted that!

Which we have just established as false. We have no direct evidence of intelligent design occurring.

Actually, all three options lack proof.

We covered that & we also have no direct proof of God designing the universe.

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So fine-tuning arguments are worthless?

In proving God's existence, yes. But they can come in handy in demonstrating God's non-existence.

Yes, like all arguments for God's existence…

Yes.

Yes. They don't get us any closer to proving God's existence. At another time, we could even discuss how they somewhat disprove God.

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How so?!

Something about Bayes' Theorem?

Using a Bayesian method, grant the two theories equal prior probabilities due to a lack of background information, which is charitable.

Using a Bayesian method. Consider that we have no decisive background information.

Fine-tuning can only be a natural process.

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Okay.

Therefore the argument fails.

So how likely is it that the observed fine-tuning is caused by chance?

We then rely on the consequent probabilities. How expected is the evidence without God?

So the question relies on the fit between theory & evidence. How expected is the evidence without God?

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Almost 0%.

Maybe…

No, it's much higher than that.

No, it's 100%. Without God, fine-tuning had to have happened, naturally, or we wouldn't exist.

As we said, it may not be that low. Indeed, it must be 100%, otherwise we wouldn't be here!

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But you agreed we couldn't prove that fine-tuning is due to chance.

Oh yeah, silly me…

That refers to an unknown posterior probability. We're currently looking at a consequent probability.

This is a different question. It concerns how well the evidence fits the theory & can result in very high numbers.

No I didn't.

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Okay.

How well does the evidence fit the 'God exists & God did it' theory?

What's the probability that God fine-tuned the universe?

Therefore, God doesn't exist.

How expected is the evidence with God?

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Definitely 100%.

No, it's 0%.

No, can't God allow us to live without fine-tuning the universe? Like how he allowed Jonah to live in the belly of the whale?

No, isn't God omnipotent? Surely he can allow people to live without fine-tuning. The Bible has many examples.

True, with both at 100%, we reach an impasse. The fine-tuning argument is pointless.

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I suppose… So what figure do we use?

Anywhere from 0% to just under 100%. This means that the overall (posterior) probability favors 'God doesn't exist'.

Some figure less than 100%. Therefore, God doesn't exist.

We simply don't know.

We can't say, but it doesn't matter. It must be less than 100%, which means the overall probability favors 'God doesn't exist'.

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Stunned

You'd be surprised just how much of the evidence used for God's existence can be used to argue against God's existence.

So fine-tuning evidence is actually more useful in arguments against God's existence.

So you should probably reconsider your belief in God.

There are a number of arguments for God's existence that can be turned around in this way.

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Really?

Yes & other arguments like from hiddenness & from evil also cause great problems for the 'God exists' theory.

Yes & you should really do more homework on them, given the possible implications for your belief.

Yes & there are also other arguments that demonstrate that God's existence is improbable. Let us discuss…

Yes & other arguments even prove that God can't exist.